Tuesday, August 19, 2008

ElderofZiyon, Liar or Ignorant?

One of Elder of Ziyon's main themes has been that the Palestinian movement is not truly a national movement, but rather, it is merely a tool for destroying Israel. One can see this theme in one of his posts here. It is difficult to tell whether Elder of ignorant, or just a liar. Without a doubt, Elder does very serious scholarly research, as most of his posts are based on the internet. Indeed, it is clear that Elder has done any serious research on the Arab-Israeli conflict at all, bc if he did, he would know the plethora of evidence for the Palestinian national movement--some of it from none other than David Ben Gurion, the first prime minister of the ZIonist state.

Talking about the Jewish question in Palestine in 1919, he acknowledges the legitimate Arab claims on the land:
"Everybody sees the problem in the relations between the Jews and the [Palestinian] Arabs. But not everybody sees that there's no solution to it. There is no solution! . . . The conflict between the interests of the Jews and the interests of the [Palestinian] Arabs in Palestine cannot be resolved by sophisms. I don't know any Arabs who would agree to Palestine being ours---even if we learn Arabic . . .and I have no need to learn Arabic. On the other hand, I don't see why 'Mustafa' should learn Hebrew. . . . There's a national question here. We want the country to be ours. The Arabs want the country to be theirs."

Here, Ben Gurion speaks, albeit in a condescending manner, of the Palestinian national movement after a commercial strike in 1922:
""The success of the [Palestinian] Arabs in organizing the closure of shops shows that we are dealing here with a national movement. For the [Palestinian] Arabs, this is an important education step.""

Here Ben Gurion acknowledges problem in Palestine of the Palestinian national movement vis a vis Zionism:
(Notice Ben Gurion notes that Arabs "want" to be the majority, when, in terms of population and land ownership they OVERWHELMINGLY WERE the majority)
"The debate as to whether or not an Arab national movement exists is a pointless verbal exercise; the main thing for us is that the movement attracts the masses. We do not regard it as a resurgence movement and its moral worth is dubious. But politically speaking it is a national movement . . . . The Arab must not and cannot be a Zionist. He could never wish the Jews to become a majority. This is the true antagonism between us and the Arabs. We both want to be the majority.""

Here, Ben Gurion begins to gain respect for the Palestinian national movement as a force to be reckoned with:
"". . . they [referring to Palestinians] showed new power and remarkable discipline. Many of them were killed . . . this time not murderers and rioters, but political demonstrators. Despite the tremendous unrest, the order not to harm Jews was obeyed. This shows exceptional political discipline. There is no doubt that these events will leave a profound imprint on the [Palestinian] Arab movement. This time we have seen a political movement which must evoke the respect of the world"

"Were I an Arab, and Arab with nationalist political consciousness . . . I would rise up against an immigration liable in the future to hand the country and all of its [Palestinian] Arab inhabitants over to Jewish rule. What [Palestinian] Arab cannot do his math and understand what [Jewish] immigration at the rate of 60,000 a year means a Jewish state in all of Palestine.""

""When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."

""The Arabs fear of our power is intensifying, [Arabs] see exactly the opposite of what we see. It doesn't matter whether or not their view is correct.... They see [Jewish] immigration on a giant scale .... they see the Jews fortify themselves economically .. They see the best lands passing into our hands. They see England identify with Zionism. ..... [Arabs are] fighting dispossession ... The fear is not of losing the land, but of losing homeland of the Arab people, which others want to turn it into the homeland of the Jewish people. There is a fundamental conflict. We and they want the same thing: We both want Palestine ..... By our very presence and progress here, [we] have matured the [Arab] movement.""

From the Mouth of Ben Gurion himself. Ouch. 


Cindy said...

I came to your blog by way of Elder's, and as usual you post w/logic and evidences, but it's only less than a 1/2 truth (ignoring what the Arabs say and record about their allegiance to the Arab nation and Islamic ummah), and the provocation of a false choice (liar or ignorant) against Elder is uncalled for. I'd hoped and still hope you were/are smarter and fairer than that.

Yerushalimey said...

You insert the bracketed term "Palestinian" into Ben Gurion's words when he talked about Arabs. I notice you don't insert the term when he refers to Jews, even though the population of the area you discuss should all be described as "Palestinian" or none should. You are attempting to create a non-Jewish "Palestinian people."
You are inventing history.
You are dishonest. Perhaps you are ignorant. Probably both.