Again, we continue with out miniseries on Israeli atrocities in Jenin. Here, see the destruction of an entire district by Israeli soldiers. And you though the mortgage crisis was bad...
"However, particularly in the Hawashin district, the destruction extended well beyond any conceivable purpose of gaining access to fighters, and was vastly disproportionate to the military objectives pursued. The damage to Jenin camp by missile and tank fire and bulldozer destruction has shocked many observers. At least 140 buildings-most of them multi-family dwellings-were completely destroyed in the camp, and severe damage caused to more than 200 others has rendered them uninhabitable or unsafe. An estimated 4,000 people, more than a quarter of the population of the camp, were rendered homeless because of this destruction. Serious damage was also done to the water, sewage and electrical infrastructure of the camp. More than one hundred of the 140 completely destroyed buildings were in Hawashin district. In contrast to other parts of the camp where bulldozers were used to widen streets, the IDF razed the entire Hawashin district, where on April 9 thirteen IDF soldiers were killed in an ambush by Palestinian militants. Establishing whether this extensive destruction so exceeded military necessity as to constitute wanton destruction-or a war crime-should be one of the highest priorities for the United Nations fact-finding mission."
Again, this is from Human RIghts Watch. When will Israel pay for these massive war crimes?
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Your obsession with Jenin induced me to look through some material about it myself. In the Daily Standard a month after the event in an article about how skewed the coverage was, I found this description of an encounter between CNN's Sheila MacVicar and an Israeli soldier in Jenin:
"One [Israeli] reservist sensed MacVicar's hostility. He was a soft-spoken man who approached her and introduced himself as the reserve unit's medical officer, Dr. David Zangen. He told her that when the fighting was over, they found photograph albums of children from roughly 6 years of age up through early and mid-teens. It was an album of photos of children who would be the next crop of suicide killers, with notations indicating when each of the children would be ripe. The reporter had no time for the doctor, however.
"'Perhaps you should ask yourself why,'" she said, dismissing him.
"'I do, madam,' he said, 'I ask myself why. I can't imagine it. I can't imagine sending one's child out to be a mass murderer who commits suicide to kill women and children.'
"'Well, I can explain it,' said the reporter. 'For me it all comes down to one word, "occupation."'
"'But madam,' the doctor said, 'Jenin hasn't been occupied for nine years.'"
Oops.
hahah. Would you like me to quote Israeli soldiers as well? Notice that I do the research, go through the human rights record and documentation...you do a google search and find a CNN article. That is my entire point. And NOTHING you said even attempts to refute or deny the atrocities I document.
" didn't see any people under the bulldozer...they ran out of the houses when we came...but even if they were people under the bulldozer, i couldn't care less. i'm sure people died in those houses i demolished but i didn't see them. there was lots of dust and we worked at night. i had great satisfaction from every house i pulled down. i knew they didn't mind dying. the houses meant more to them...my only pain is that we didn't manage to bulldoze the whole camp"
http://www.gush-shalom.org/archives/kurdi_eng.html
Again, who is more seirous. One who goes through the human rights record through mianstream human rights organizations? Or someone who uses one quote from one article he googled. I notice you wont visit Amnesty International's site either to see what THEY document. Try to be serious.
I told the truth. I casually googled Jenin, because of your blog, and quickly came upon the piece I quoted.
I have no reason to spend hours digging up dirt. I'm not obsessed with painting a people as evil, as you seem to be, but I am serious.
Still, I feel no need to knock myself out trying to prove you wrong. You fail to respond to the questions I raise anyway.
Regarding Israel's atrocities: I don't try to deny history. But you ignore any history that doesn't deal with some kind of fault of Israel's.
Why, out of all the things in the world to choose from, are you so hung up on Israel - or, as you call it - Zionism? What's wrong with the idea of Jews having a homeland?
Why are you so incensed about Zionism?
I'm not asking you to quote articles or cite sources. I just want to know what you believe, drives you to rehash all these old stories.
I know, youre more interested in changing the subject into what I BELIEVE. As opposed to the historical and documentary record. I understand you want to change the subject, bc it embarasses the very state that you support. Yes, I have chosen ZIonism. Maybe for personal reasons, maybe not. But it is the topic ive chosen. I doubt you would have any problem with a blog focusing solely on Saddam's Baath party- I doubt you would call them "anti-Iraqi". Me, Im not going to get distracted, I will continue to document the falsehoods and lies of Israeli propoganda. Im not going to apologize for documenting Israeli massacres, and documenting the wars it has launched ad the destruction ishas brought on the region.
My apologies. I misunderstood you. Most people are glad to have an audience for their opinions, but you are content to dredge up and spout all kinds of anecdotes and statistics (as long as they cast a bad light on "Zionists") instead.
You are so selfless, it's mind-boggling.
I bet you'd be a suicide bomber if you knew the right people.
So, you have reprinted a whole lot of information indicating that Israelis have hurt or killed people and taken their property.
Well, what's your point?
People from all nations have committed crimes, haven't they? What's your obsession with Israel and Jews - or, as you call them - Zionists?
I guess you must believe the Bible and think Jews are special.
Have I changed the subject again?
Perhaps you'd prefer me to put it this way: What makes Jenin so special?
"Special?" The only thing that is special is that so may people deny the atrocities that took place there.
Moreover, your questions are bizzarre. What for example, was the obsession of this or that human rights activist who documented the crimes of this or that Arab dictator? Why wont you ask THESE questions?
There's no point in asking questions of people, like your human rights activists, who aren't here. My guess is as good as yours, right?
Nevertheless, it's a good question.
Which Arab atrocities are you referring to, by the way?
You wrote:
"Special?" The only thing that is special is that so may people deny the atrocities that took place there.
OK, I'm willing to learn. Please provide me with some of the many denials.
To sum up, in this comment I have asked for two responses:
1)Which Arab atrocities are you referring to?
2)Where are some denials of what took place at Jenin?
(You needn't mention that independent sources denied Arab claims that 300 were massacred and that the whole town was destroyed.
Just provide some denials of what REALLY happened.)
I'd like answers to both questions, but I'll settle for one straight answer. Thanks.
I would conced that war itself is a crime against humanity yet only a dhim wit would denounce it as necessary to defend yourself against enemies. Real war and war crimes are only prosecutable by the side that wins. Risking war crime prosecution is a far better choice that rolling gover for an enemy. Especially one that adheres to Islam.
What for example, was the obsession of this or that human rights activist who documented the crimes of this or that Arab dictator?
Well, how about this? Why are the Palestinians such a cause celebre these days? And how does Israel's record on Human Rights stack up against other countries which are in conflict with hostile nationalist movements, which have been involved in wars in recent years, which have active territorial disputes, etc.? Can you put all the information you dig up into a global-trends/recent history context?
"Well, how about this? Why are the Palestinians such a cause celebre these days? And how does Israel's record on Human Rights stack up against other countries which are in conflict with hostile nationalist movements, which have been involved in wars in recent years, which have active territorial disputes, etc.? Can you put all the information you dig up into a global-trends/recent history context?"
This would be interesting. I take a look at the death/destruction of the Arab Israeli conflict on all the actors, compare it to the population of the actors (suffering/capital, if you will), and see in general how this compares with other conflicts. That would something to look at. Any ideas?
I just glanced at the International Rescue Committee's website. They point out there are 5.4 million dead so far in Congo and more than 2 million in Darfur.
I don't know what percentages of the population these figures represent. I suppose percentages matter if one has an agenda and is trying to prove a point. But the fact remains, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE have died.
If you want to, you could accuse me of changing the subject. But what I and, I think, Yitzchak Goodman are saying is that the subject should NOT be the I/P situation in the first place.
Whatever crimes or atrocities are committed by Israel, Zionists and Jews are, although serious, insignificant in scale to what has been happening in Africa and all over the globe.
Still, you'd be doing an enormous service if you compiled statistics about conflicts besides those in which Israel is involved and suffering in which Palestinians are not involved. I'd be really interested in what you came up with.
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